Directors on Directors: Tyler Perry & Chinonye Chukwu

For the latest installment of their ongoing “Directors on Directors” series, Variety paired Tyler Perry and Chinonye Chukwu, director of the highly anticipated 2022 drama Till, in conversation. The two had met previously during the filming of Till at Tyler Perry Studios in Atlanta, where Tyler Perry would often visit the production’s set in support of the film. The two directors spoke on the current atmosphere of the industry and how they have grown within it over the years to tell the stories they find important and compelling.

“The past is very much intertwined with the present and we are in a time where this [Black] history is actively being erased in schools, in our own lives, and screens. And so, we need to know this history. There are a lot of people who don’t know it and it is very reflective of our present reality.”

Tyler Perry starts the conversation by congratulating Chinonye Chukwu for the success of Till. Perry also expresses pride in Danielle Deadwyler’s performance as Mamie Till. He brings up a question a friend of his formulated after watching Till: “Why do Black people have to keep telling these stories, and why do we always go back; why can’t we look forward?” He asks Chinonye for her take on it before giving his answer. Chinonye believes that the question and the film Till are all connected to the activism and work done with the oppressions occurring around them. One form of oppression she references is how numerous voters were disenfranchised in the recent U.S. midterm elections, with the vast majority of those excluded votes being from citizens of minority groups.

Perry claims his answer to the question is like Chinonye’s. He believes there’s an active role in trying to water down, rewrite, and homogenize the history of Black people in the U.S. While he doesn’t want his 7-year-old son to learn the brutality of the history at such a young age, Perry also doesn’t want his son growing up in an America where all of the Black history has been washed away. In Perry’s opinion, there needs to be a reference to the oppressive Black history that he can point at, like the story of Till.

Curious about Chinonye’s form of storytelling, Perry asks why she chose to tell the story of Till through Mamie Till’s point of view. Chinonye states that without Mamie, the world wouldn’t know who Emmett Till was. Chinonye has always seen this film be about Mamie because she is the heartbeat of the story and its foundation. She laments how not many people know about Mamie and Mamie’s legacy: the choice Mamie made and her work helped become a catalyst for the modern American Civil Right Movement. Chinonye describes Mamie’s journey as fierce, layered, and complex, so she wanted to center a Black woman like Mamie in her rightful place in history. Perry adds how he believes Chinonye has done just that.

Perry also brings up Whoopi Goldberg and how he remembers talking to her about how long Whoopi has held on to Till. Seeing the story of Till comes to life with Whoopi in it was an incredible experience for Perry. Chinonye explains how she met Whoopi three years ago when Whoopi and the producers of Till approached her about directing the film. In Chinonye’s opinion, Whoopi was an egoless, generous, and respectful human being. As a Black woman in the industry, Chinonye felt honored to meet and work alongside Whoopi. She was amazed at how eager Whoopi was to be directed and how receptive Whoopi was to direct. Chinonye also comments on how she appreciated the humor Whoopi expressed in between takes.

“A lot has changed because when I started doing film and television, there was a great, Black power moment that happened in the 1990s where you had all these sitcoms on UPN with Black people, and you had all these movies…They were all out and it was a great time, but then all of a sudden, nothing. Everything went away.”

Chinonye reveals that Perry showed up on set to support everyone on the cast and crew. She had the production office for Till at Perry’s Atlanta-based studios. It was the first time Chinonye worked at those studios. She praises Perry for the legacy he built and sees him as a successful filmmaker and businessman. Chinonye then asks Perry how he thinks the industry has changed and how his relationship with the industry has changed since his film Diary of a Mad Black Woman (2005). Perry explains how he came from New Orleans with the idea in the form of Diary of a Mad Black Woman with a larger-than-life, over-the-top female character he plays. He believes the film came at an interesting time to enter the industry, but Perry also thinks its success began to ring bells for other people. Perry sees this as due to Hollywood following its motto: if it works, they follow.

Perry describes the late 1990s as a time when Black-culture-focused movies stopped working or went away. As a result, Hollywood needed something else to follow. Perry claims the success of his television show House of Payne (2007), the film Diary of a Mad Black Woman, and the Madea franchise started to open doors for people of color to tell their stories. However, the success made Perry a target by overshadowing other Black people attempting to tell their perspectives. He hopes that people can understand that “just because we’re Black, doesn’t mean we have to say the same thing.” Coming from the 1990s to now and seeing what has changed, shifted the perception of Black people in cinema. Perry notes how people like Chinonye are now getting opportunities that wouldn’t have happened fifteen years ago. Nowadays, people are less surprised and looking forward to a Black director. For Perry, it has been a wonderful journey to watch, and he takes comfort in knowing he had a part in assisting the change. He says the successes of his projects and those of people like Chinonye proved to Hollywood that there is a hunger for Black storytellers.

“What I have found in the industry is simply this: the death of George Floyd…I think so many of us owe him because the tragedy of that made everyone in every industry stop and go, ‘Wait a minute, we need to do better.’”

Chinonye details one of the reasons why she is excited to speak with Perry is that she sees a linkage between each other. She has always admired Perry’s work and contributions to the industry and sees Perry as having an impact on filmmakers like herself. She asks Perry to speak more about how his specific path directly ties to Black filmmakers. While Perry does accept some credit for paving the way for Black filmmakers, he ultimately believes the recent interest in films going in-depth with Black history is due to George Floyd. George Floyd losing his life the way he did and witnessed by the general populace made Perry and everyone pause and consider what they can do to be better. Coupling that tragedy with watching the success of Black filmmakers like Perry caused people in Hollywood to wonder why Black people pay attention to this. This, in turn, led Hollywood to greenlight more projects featuring Black people to find the next Tyler Perry and others who tell similar stories.

Perry believes the search for upcoming Black talent became more rampant after the death of George Floyd. As he mentioned earlier, Perry feels the tragedy caused a desire to do better within the industry, so more people of color were given a shot. Looking at the connections, Perry reasons there is a line via history with everything Black people have been through. Having someone similar to how Oprah Winfrey and Sidney Poitier were for Perry convinced Hollywood to see the opportunity in investing into Black and multi-ethnic audiences. Perry states that what Hollywood understands most are numbers: successes like Perry and the pain of George Floyd came to where American cinema is now. However, Perry is worried about Black people not seizing this moment fully. In his opinion, Perry never wants to put himself in a position he’s not ready to handle. Perry wants to learn as much as he can, which is why he didn’t direct his first film. Despite funding his first film, Perry knew he wasn’t knowledgeable or experienced enough to be a director; he stepped back and absorbed all the information he could. Perry wants all of this to be an opportunity for others.

“I always wanted to do that [A Jazzman’s Blues] and when critics would say, “What is he doing with this Madea, what is this ridiculousness,” I got Jazzman’s in the back of my pocket. One day I’ll tell the story, but I couldn’t have a misstep in the business. I couldn’t afford to not have a hit. I was building something, and I was proving something all along the way.”

Chinonye brings up the fact that Perry had written A Jazzman’s Blues twenty-seven years ago, and she then asks Perry why he delayed the film for so long. Perry claims the film couldn’t have been made back then and could only go with what worked. He knew his audience loved Madea and the Why Did I Get Married franchises, so he made the business decision to solidify his base. Perry believed the timing was key, and until the opportune moment came for A Jazzman’s Blues, he would continue to build himself up and observe society. Perry explains to Chinonye that it’s all about watching what happens in America. Perry recalls the grand opening of the Tyler Perry Studios lot in Atlanta, Georgia. Congressman John Lewis and Stacy Abrams attended the ceremony, and together, they discussed the things happening with voting rights and Black history in the U.S.

For Perry, watching all these moments occur while books are banned and people saying slavery wasn’t so bad (even coming from Black people) hit home on how important it is to look at what’s happening in the world. As an artist, Perry believes it’s his job to speak to that. Even his last Madea movie, A Madea Homecoming (2022), had a meaning behind it. Perry wished to bring laughter to the American people after the previous presidential administration surrounded itself with anger, rage, vitriol, and acrimony. Ultimately, A Madea Homecoming was Perry’s way of making America laugh and, for a moment, forget about the decisiveness in the country.

Wanting to shift the conversation to Till, Perry mentions that the film was Chinonye’s third feature and first studio film. Congratulating Chinonye for an award she received for Clemency (2019), Perry asks her what it felt like to go from Clemency to Till. Chinonye claims to have had the most creative experience making Till since she had full creative autonomy. However, she does recognize there is a system to the industry, so she mostly took on an observational role on the business side of things. Perry commends Chinonye for her decision because he claims to have witnessed many directors and individuals in the industry who only did their job and thought nothing else beyond the role. In an opinion he shares with Chinonye, studying the system is essential.

Perry feels that in Hollywood, there is a lot of nonsense. People there don’t want to tell you the truth and, instead, say how great something was even though you know it wasn’t. Part of the reason this happens is that “the assistant who was yelled at for coffee could become the individual who runs the studio.” Everyone is trying to be delicate since nobody knows what the future holds. Perry asserts that some of the best lessons he learned from working in Hollywood are to treat everybody well, don’t lie, and study the system while being a director.

“My outside perception of you [Tyler Perry] over the years is one that I see in my intention and my work, and there is an unapologetic way in how you center Black people and Black gazes in your work. And that’s something that I definitely was intentional about with making Till.”

After hearing the lessons Perry learned from working in Hollywood, Chinonye asks if there are other things he discovered about the industry, its infrastructure, and its system during his career. Perry divulges that he has found race to be a frequent topic of discussion. In his career, Perry has conversed with non-Black individuals who weren’t aware of and didn’t know about the stories Perry shared that involved the hardships of being an ethnic minority. He didn’t believe these people to be racists, only individuals that didn’t have these types of stories on their radar.

Walking into a room and immediately assuming everybody is racist will always put you on the back foot. Perry has learned, especially coming from the U.S. South, is when entering a room, he listens and hears what everyone is and isn’t saying. He has run into people who were racist, but Perry states they are different from people who are not aware. A little bit of education has gone a long way for those unaware individuals and Perry himself. Perry hopes upcoming directors are open to studying the system and listening before they conclude.

Chinonye mentions how she has noticed Perry’s unapologetic way of centering Black characters and their challenges. She believes it attracts Black gazes and claims she intentionally did the same in Till. When Chinonye looks at Perry and his career, she sees someone who shows no remorse in how he develops his creations, who knows whom he’s making them for, and who knows how to navigate the industry. She asks Perry how he has maintained the same level of “unapologetic-ness” over the years while also building success for himself. According to Perry, it all comes down to his audience: understanding and knowing them. He has a niche, and he knows how to effectively serve it.

Perry focuses on his niche, never worrying about who did or didn’t get the meaning behind his films. He believes he has many successful films because each film talks to an audience he has cultivated for thirty years. Perry knows them and considers this audience as a family member. He realized this approach didn’t sit well with the elite and trained inside the industry, but Perry continued to hold on to his specificity. Perry now feels he is in a place where he can still serve his niche with Madea, but also go in an opposite direction in the genre.

“When you have an audience that’s with you, that stands with you, you can move mountains.”

Perry explains how the things he talks about in his films are what plagues, bothers, lifts, supports, encourages, tears down, and builds up for his particular audience. He claims the Madea franchise was doing something for an audience that Hollywood had ignored. Perry believes it was important for Black people to see themselves on screen in a genuine moment. He recalls a conversation he had with a woman who contemplated suicide. The woman explained to Perry how she went to get her kids, brought them to a hotel, and planned to do anything her children wanted as (in her mind) her last day on Earth. Her kids told her they wanted to see one of Perry’s plays, so the woman got a VHS tape version of the play and watched it together with her children. The woman confessed to Perry that halfway through the video, she no longer wanted to die and gained hope. Hearing that story gave Perry an indescribable feeling of honor.

Regarding Chinonye’s claim of being unapologetic when creating Till, Perry believes she needed to do that, or the film wouldn’t have been as impactful. He then advises Chinonye whom he claims to have kept since the early days of his career: “to be willing to walk away from an opportunity that doesn’t sit well for yourself is one of the best things someone in the industry could do.” Perry explains that he can turn down projects thanks to his audience. He recounts an opportunity for a television show on CBS early in his career. Perry’s agent at the time was telling him how Hollywood had decided to do the show as written and directed by Chuck Lorre. After looking at the notes and scripts, Perry realized he didn’t like the story or content. He wanted to walk away, but he had already signed a contract. Thankfully, Perry’s agent told him that Lorre had dropped the show in favor of Two and a Half Men (2003). Perry was so happy he left for Atlanta and put his money toward House of Payne (2007).

Chinonye points out that Perry has talked about his next project being a film centered around World War II in several interviews and public appearances. Understanding such a setting would be vastly different from his Madea movies, Chinonye asks Perry if he thinks the audience he cultivated will follow into what seems like the next evolution of Perry’s filmmaking career. Perry reassures Chinonye and the people watching the interview that he doesn’t plan to leave behind the stories he created, but feels like he has earned that moment to pursue outside his familiarity.

“For Till, I had deep, deep anxiety beforehand because of the significance of the story, the weight of it, and the responsibility of it. And so, I had that going into it, and then I just let it all go.”

Perry then asks Chinonye about what she thinks is next for her after Till. Chinonye asserts that she is not interested in being a part of another serious drama anytime soon. Instead, she desires to do something different with each new project. Chinonye expresses her desire to delve into different genres, specifically one that is fast-paced and offbeat for her next film. She wants to be somewhat scared while doing a project because Chinonye believes the feat holds her accountable to do her best. Perry sees that with a film like Till, directors don’t think about critics or the studios. Instead, the focus is on the ancestors and telling the real story of tragedy. Chinonye agrees, claiming that she wanted to do a service for her ancestors and the legacies involved with the story. She strived to get the story right and had numerous conversations with Danielle Deadwyler about the work on Till being a service to Black people.

Regarding Danielle Deadwyler, the day Perry came on the set of Till and saw Deadwyler perform, he got the sense she was carrying the weight of Emmett Till. He describes seeing the sadness in Deadwyler’s eyes, and remembers thinking, “That’s the kind of actress you want to work with.” Perry believes Deadwyler understood the assignment and fell so deep into the role that she said a thousand things without speaking. Chinonye agrees with Perry and adds that Deadwyler gives everything she has in every role.

Curious about Perry’s experience working with Deadwyler, she asks about the first time he met and worked with Deadwyler. Perry describes his experience working with Danielle Deadwyler as similar to his experience working with Viola Davis on Madea Goes to Jail (2009). He praises their talent, and in both projects, Perry wondered why such talented actors agreed to be in his movies. The thing about Deadwyler that caught Perry’s attention was her ability to naturally shift gears in her portrayals. Chinonye states she also took notice of that talent, praising how brilliant Deadwyler is and reaffirming her respect for Deadwyler giving everything in her roles.

“With Danielle, we spent months before shooting going through every single emotional beat and nuance in the script. I love doing that kind of work with actors and getting underneath and in between the words and figuring that out.”

Once again congratulating Chinonye for her directing skills in Till, Perry asks what being a director felt like for her. Chinonye expresses her love for directing and explains how she enjoys getting involved with every actor with the same level of passion and commitment. She reveals that she frequently deep-dived into the research for Till and provided research archives for everyone in the cast and crew. One thing Chinonye claims to take away from directing is two-person scenes. She loves working with them because she enjoys digging into the possible interactions between two characters. She credits her cast with making the process for these scenes easier.

Perry claims he feels the same with lead actors Solea Pfeiffer and Joshua Boone. He notes that both actors are new faces in the industry, with A Jazzman’s Blues being Pfeiffer’s first film, and Joshua is predominantly present in the independent film scene. Perry reveals that he initially wrote himself to be the lead in A Jazzman’s Blues in 1995 but aged out of the role. In trying to find his actors, Perry set his sights on Broadway. He discovered a clique-like atmosphere on Broadway, stating how each performer he encountered would recommend and praise their colleagues. Perry has come to enjoy breaking in new faces within the industry, and he briefly brings up how he brought in actors like Viola Davis and Idris Elba when they were considered new.

Chinonye confesses that she recently re-watched Perry’s entire catalog of films. She knew beforehand that Perry is known for breaking in new talent, but going back into the casting of his past films amazes Chinonye. When she asks him how foresaw their talent, Perry chalks it up to sometimes feeling something special when encountering actors. He hopes the same will happen to Boone, Solea, and other fresh talents he brought to A Jazzman’s Blues. Perry wants audiences and people in the industry to look at them and also see something special within these actors. He claims he can tell how good an actor is by the questions they ask. Little things like asking why a scene is a way it is or giving input in shoots lead Perry to believe the actor can read between the lines.

“If you have the hunger for acting, you can step out of yourself and let the character come through you. When an actor does that, that’s when you know they’re commanding the screen and holding the moment.”

Continuing the discussion about casting, Chinonye asks what Perry looks for in actors. Perry discloses that he looks for two things: the hunger and the talent for acting. With hunger, as long as actors have that first and then the talent, the possibilities are endless in Perry’s opinion. Perry asks the same question to Chinonye, and she discloses that she looks for individuals who can tell a story with just their eyes. She subconsciously asks the actors and herself if they can hold and command a screen without saying anything. Both she and Perry agree Deadwyler has that skill in spades. Like Perry, Chinonye also looks for actors who ask the right questions. Lastly, she also gauges how willing actors are to make themselves vulnerable to their roles.

Perry also pays attention when an actor isn’t speaking. Even off camera, Perry is watching actors to see what they are doing and determine if they are still carrying the character outside shootings. Chinonye then brings up an interesting question about the correlation between Perry’s success and his talent search. Perry explains that screening actors have become more difficult after making a name for himself because most people in the industry expect him to dish out another Madea movie instead of a serious drama like A Jazzman’s Blues. He recalls how during one incident, an actor approached Perry to inquire about his next project before the actor quickly stated how he only performed “quality stuff” before Perry could answer. This type of situation exasperates Perry. Madea does not require what A Jazzman’s Blues requires, explaining how there’s a level of having people understand that, “I’m not bringing you here to do a Madea movie.” Perry reaffirms that he knows what he is creating and can go beyond comedy.

Changing topics, Chinonye praises the cinematography in A Jazzman’s Blues. She asks Perry to talk about the film’s Director of Photography (DP) and how he found his DP. Tyler Perry reveals his DP as Brett Pollock. Pollock hadn’t done many projects at the time, but Perry felt there was something special about Pollock after watching his World War II film. When Perry talked about the sets and how he wanted the shots, he notes that Pollock was always on top of things while going above and beyond Perry’s expectations. Chinonye credits Till’s cinematographer Bobby Bukowski for his work on set. Chinonye confesses that her first requirement for cinematography was the lighting on Black people’s skin. Both she and Perry agree that oftentimes, cinematographers don’t know how to effectively light up Black skin, especially when sharing the shot with a White person. Chinonye divulges how she planned to have a bright and rich color palette for Till. She wanted the colors and skin color of the character to pop on screen to reflect the beauty of Black people: a vibrancy that can never die despite the sadness and pain of the story.

“When I [Tyler Perry] came into directing, part of the frustration with my first film and television is the amount of time everything took and the amount of waste. But when you’re the one that’s writing the check for everything and directing, you watch every moment and know everyone’s job.”

Chinonye then inquires about the difference between Perry’s process of making a Madea film compared to A Jazzman’s Blues. In a surprising reveal, Perry confesses that A Jazzman’s Blues was the first film he enjoyed directing and that everything beforehand felt like work. This film, in Perry’s opinion, allowed him to be present and be in space; he loved every minute of it. While he did enjoy what audiences would get from his past films, Perry felt like the process was just a job to finish. Being the one who funds and directs the film enabled Perry to go through the job of everyone on set and figure out what each individual needs. Having that understanding streamlined the time Perry spent on creating A Jazzman’s Blues.

Winding down on the interview, Chinonye asks Perry where he plans to go from here as a filmmaker. Before answering, Perry asks Chinonye to answer the same question. She reveals she has been considering how to build her filmography and is also contemplating what her legacy will be. Chinonye sees herself continuing to explore bigger worlds and stories. She ultimately wants to surprise audiences and herself, never losing that passion, joy, or fear for the work. Perry assures Chinonye that he believes she will do phenomenal things in the future and advises her to never be afraid to walk away from a project that doesn’t feel right.

As a filmmaker, Perry wants to dive into the films that he never got to do like his upcoming World War II movie. Perry desires to work on different genres now that he has built everything he needs for his career. Nowadays, Perry is seeing more people of color receiving opportunities that have never been present before in Hollywood. He believes that at this point in his life, the only reason for him to work this hard and continue is for the people who are coming up through those open gates of opportunity. Perry claims seeing those people’s lives change and knowing he played a part in it will become his legacy.

The conversation ends with Chinonye asking Perry one last question. She explains this last question is asked because she has been on her journey in terms of joy, happiness, and peace as she navigates the industry. Chinonye wants to know if Perry is now in a place of joy and peace with himself. Perry immediately agrees that he is. He feels like he is no longer running and trying to keep up. Seeing his business rapidly grow made Perry feel like his “feet were moving at a thousand miles an hour.” Thankfully, Perry now sees himself in a place where he can pace himself and delegate his duties to others. He reveals that he has already handed two of his television shows to different directors, recruited new writers, and handed off other responsibilities to people he trusts. For Perry, it feels good to have established himself and stepped back a bit to let everybody else get their chance.